Thursday, June 09, 2005

Greece Is Tops In Anti-Globalization

The quasi-governmental Chinese news agency People's Daily reports that Greece is tops in a poll on popular anti-Globalization sentiment:

The world-wide survey was conducted by TNS-ICAP in cooperation with the Gallup International Association in 64 countries spread over five continents.

It shows that a 56 percent majority of world citizens are opposed to globalization, believing that it creates more problems than it solves. Greece topped the list, with 72 percent of the respondents in agreement with that opinion.

10 Comments:

Blogger Deucalionite said...

Excellent post adelphe.

You see, the majority of the Greek people never want to forsake their ethnic, racial, linguistic, cultural, and religious heritage.

There is hope for Greece's future.

You have done a great service for your Hellenic brothers and sisters by posting this adelphe.

Keep up the good work.

Later.

10:02 AM  
Blogger Hellenic Nationalist said...

Well, this news only confirms what I got from talking to Greeks and from persoanl obervations.

I am not sure what the motives are behind Greece's percieved ,extreme Anti-Globalization.

As far as the majority's opinion, something tells me that Marx may have more to do with this, rather than "ethnic, racial, linguistic,cultural, and religious heritage"...maybe not though.

4:05 PM  
Blogger Hellenian said...

When Greeks say they are against "globalization", they mean "Capitalistic globalization". They do not mean "all forms of globalization". Only the Socialist varient of globalization.

Many Greeks do not even recognize Socialistic globalization to be a form of globalization at all. The few that do, believe it is a "good type of globalization" to paraphrase the words of former Minister of Macedonia-Thrace George Paschalidis: http://www.e-grammes.gr/2001/07/greece_news.htm

Globalization is any type of internationalism, whether Socialistic or Capitalistic in form, which seeks to ultimately liquidate the nation-state, ethnic and cultural identity, and religion for ideological and/or socioeconomic purposes. The Greek population is only against the Capitalistic varient. Therefore, the Greek population is as "anti-globalist" as the Marxists and Anarchists who rioted against the G8 Genoa Summit in 2001. Or, in other words: they are not genuinely anti-globalist at all.

After all, it is not uncommon to hear a Greek say with pride in his voice, "We are finally Europeans now". Nor can one ignore the fact that internationalistic ideologies like Anarchism, Socialism, and Communism are in vogue in Greece right now and have been for several decades.

The only anti-globalists in Greece are a few genuine Conservatives (who make up only a tiny minority of New Democracy's total voters) and the various Greek nationalists. The rest of Greece either: a) firmly supports Socialist globalization and denounces Capitalistic globalization or b) is simply apathetic to the issue of globalization altogether.

8:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The majority in Greece does not understand the underlying issues of globalization and its ultimate consequences. A large proportion feel inclined towards marxism without realizing it. There is an inner contradiction in their expressions and sentiments.Antiglobalism could be interpreted as antiamericanism since the Americans are spearheading it. The established political elite is unambiguously globalist ,internationalist, and Europeanist to the las tee.It is the fashion. Greece is more "European" then the European Union itself. Their actions are inimical to the Greeks and the nation.They think they have "arrived". Arrived where ? Europe today is a moral cesspool and it is not the Europe of yesteryears. 60 years of military occupation, cultural oppression,economic subservience, and relentless, unnecessary ,immigration from the rest of the world will,which is continuing without any hope of ever ending, invariably leave its damning mark. Greece is happy to have arrived and become integrated in this indescribable miasma, and what is more there is not even an hint on how to come out from it.Legislation and laws that are tabled and passed in parliament leads the country more firmly into the clutches of the Union.More dependence and less independence. Travelling on this current road can it get any better ?
I wish I could feel as confident about the future as some others do.
The struggle,however,has to go on.

6:08 AM  
Blogger Deucalionite said...

I am sorry Hellenian, but the Greeks today do not deem themselves with pride as "Europeans" in the context of E.U. dynamics. If anything, the Greeks are deemed as the most resilient people towards the concept of destroying their own identity and embracing an identity of E.U. continent proportions.

Greeks do not mind being deemed a member of the European family in the context of E.U. dynamics. However, Greeks are Greeks first and Europeans second. This will not change.

Also, I really doubt that Greeks are blind toward anything that threatens the integrity of their identity and nation. Greece is teeming with problems that everyday Greeks are very cognizant about and want their Greek government (and not Brussels) to get organized and solve the problems. It does not matter if the problems come from the capitalistic version or the socialistic version of globalization. If the problems that threaten Greece and Greek identity are not solved, then they are only going to be exacerbated to the point where nationalism will increase and "Europeanness" will cease to be a state of mind.

If the Greeks were truly "European," then they would have voted "yes" on the E.U. constitution in a public referendum (which did not occur) and they would not mind having Brussels tell them what to do. However, if there was a public referendum, then the Greeks would have voted "no," which is why Karamanlis did not hold a public referendum.

Regardless if there is two or ten or fifty types of globalization in the world, it does not change the fact that the Greeks are very resilient against anything that threatens who they are as an ethnos.

You may deem the Greeks as "untrue anti-globalists." Fine. Completely understandable based on what you have explained. However, I would rather see Greeks resist rather than be submissive and end up being walked all over by powers that could care less about the welfare of Greece. The Greek government may be submissive, but the Greek people are not. There is a difference. This kind of difference between the minds of the politicians and the minds of the people is what led to the rejection of the E.U. constitution and E.U. in general.

I know that Greece will one day have a patriotic party in power that can actually take the time to solve Greece's problems and help Greeks better maintain their nation against things like capitalistic (and socialistic) globalization.

Patience adelphe. Greece will be restored to her former glory. Just be happy for now that Greeks are showing resistance to things that threaten them. There are peoples in this world that are less resilient are more passive to the problems facing their countries.

I sense as if I am the only Greek nationalist who has an optimistic outlook on Greece's future (even though I am still wary of Greece's problems). I am not trying to downplay the struggles Greece and the Greeks must undergo before things get better. All I ask of my brethren is to be optimistic even if the odds are heavy against us. This is not the first time in our history as a genos and as an ethnos that we had to confront overwhelming odds.

Instead of looking to the darkness for insight and waiting for Charon's arrival, one should be knowledgable of the lessons learned from our mistakes as a people and simply implement measures to prevent them from occurring again.

I know that Greek nationalists will prevail in the end. As the days go by, it is becoming more of a matter of "when" than a matter of "if." Just wait and see.

In the words of the great Byzantine Emperor of the Macedonian Dynasty, Basil II Bulgaroktonos:

"Ostis polemistis akoloutheito moi."

"As long as I am a warrior, follow me."

As Greeks, we must persevere just like our ancestors did to grant us a better life. If we give up now or take things too pessimistically, then what is the point of fighting?
We might as well give up and forsake ourselves to the unknown abyss. I for one am tired of being pessimistic and hearing the things about Greece that sound as if the nation is going to die tomorrow or that the Greek ethnos will cease to be in the next few hours.

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. The clock beckons one to pay heed to Charon's glee and laughter. And the scythe wavers above our heads.

I am tired of this pessimism and although I am fully aware of the problems posted by all Greeks, the question remains, "What are we going to do about it?"

So far, Greeks are resisting. More power to them. This resilience is what will pave the way for Greek nationalists to finally be able to take their efforts on a national level and help their brethren.

I am sorry if my words sound harsh to you if you read them. However, everywhere I go and everything I hear about Greece has to be oriented around some apocalyptic outlook.

Again, I am sorry if my words sound harsh to you if you read them.

Later adelphe. Take care.

11:25 AM  
Blogger Hellenian said...

If Greeks have such a strong identity, then tell me why Greeks in Greece consider foreign-born Greeks as "xenoi" regardless of how well these Greeks speak the language, how well versed in Greek history they are, and how loyal they are to Greece? Yet, if one is born in Greece (and thus a citizen) and dwell there they are automatically considered Greek even if they are ignorant of Greek history and openly against the Greek state. Don't you think this behavior shows that there is a major problem in Greek self-identity caused by three decades of anti-nationalist rule?

There is no evidence to suggest that if a public referendum was held that the majority of Greeks would have voted "no". Especially when one considers that polls showed that 70% of Greeks had no idea what the Euro-Constitution was about.

As for your implication that I am being pessimistic, this is not true. What I am is simply a realist. Being a pessimist may be a liability, but so is being overly optimistic.

Becoming a defeatist (i.e. a pessimist) or a quixotic individual (i.e. an optimist) is easy. In the former case one has already resigned himself and thus has no worries because everything is lost; in the latter case one disregards practicality for naivete and thus has no worries because he believes anything and everything will eventually happen. Only the pragmatist (i.e. the realist) suffers because he has to stare the cold, hard truth in the face without deceiving himself in either direction.

12:52 PM  
Blogger Deucalionite said...

Hellenian. I am not against you being a pragmatist. In all honesty, there is nothing wrong with being a pragmatist. Forgive me for accusing you of pessimism by the way. I am not one to go against my brethren for it is an honor code policy.

Pessimism may be a liability, but it is still something that can be overcome with optimism (not the naive kind for that is the easy way out). One does not need to be naive to be optimistic. One can establish a dualistic mentality that encompasses both pragmatism and optimism (again not the naive kind).

Even if one does stare at the cold hard truth, one should still hold his/her head high and see the future for the potential good it may bring in the end. Simply stating the bad things in society is good, but only to an extent. Taking the mistakes and seeing how they can temper one's ability to succeed in the future is what counts in the end. I could tell you as a pragmatist the mistakes of every Greek in Greek history. However, I will also tell you of the things Greeks did that allowed them to overcome their mistakes and eventually prosper.

I will explain to you Hellenian why indeed the Greeks of Greece consider foreign-born Greeks as "xenoi." This mentality has a history, which I will be more than happy to tell you.
This mentality does have a history that is older than what the anti-nationalists in Greece have done.

All throughout Greece's history, many Greeks left Greece in search for a better life or at least a life that was outside of their homeland in the Greek peninsula. The Greek Diaspora created colonies and even established civilizations that were in unison with the Greek peninsula (i.e. Magna Graecia in southern Italy).

The Greeks who remained in Greece have a peninsular mentality that is, to a large extent, of the closed-minded variety. They feel that they are the only ones who truly understand their country (even if they do not know much about it in comparison to Greeks from the Diaspora) and that they have every right to keep it even from other Greeks they feel have been influenced by real non-Greek foreigners.

Overall, the Greeks of Greece have a very strong protectionist mentality. Moreover, the Greeks of Greece feel in a sense "betrayed" for seeing all of the successful Greeks leave the homeland to go elsewhere. Just like in Ottoman times. The first migration of Greeks consisted of the Greek intelligentsia that went to the West and contributed to the Renaissance in Italy. The second, and much larger, Greek migration entailed Greeks from the Greek peninsula migrating to the mountains to escape Ottoman rule.

Naturally, no one knows exactly how many Greeks were living in the mountains since the Ottoman Empire never took a census of the Greeks living up there. The censi conducted by the Ottomans were oriented around peoples under Ottoman control (peoples mostly living in the plains).

However, the Greeks of Greece are now realizing that their brethren outside of Greece have a place among them. To be honest, many Greeks in the U.S. are beginning to migrate back to Greece to live there. Naturally, Greeks in Greece will feel a bit "crowded" by the influx of Greeks from foreign nations. However, they are realizing that it is better for Greeks to return to Greece rather than have non-Greeks who are not wanted in Greece.

If want me to explain things a little bit further, then just ask.

Let us move on to the European Union constitution. You say that Greeks were not aware of the constitution and what it was all about based on a poll. Of course, just so you know, I do not trust Greek news media when it comes to Greek domestic affairs. What the Greek news media does not tell people is the fact that most Europeans did not what the E.U. constitution was because of the fact that it was a 200 page document filled with bureaucratic nonsense. The politicians in Brussels, as well as the politicians in the 25 E.U. nation-states were hoping that the people of Europe will simply fork over power to their politicians and be apathetic to the contents of the E.U. Because the E.U. constitution was so complicated and failed to promote any real benefits to E.U. nation-states, people rejected it.

The Greeks may not have known what the constitution possessed in its 200 pages, but the Greeks knew that due to its complexity it was just not worth trusting. Even if you do not know something does not mean you should trust it. So what did the Dutch and French trust when they both rejected the constitution? They trusted their respective social environments. They saw the problems in their nations and realized that it was time for their nations to undergo reform as opposed to wasting time and energy on a document that is not clear on how it will benefit the social environments of all Europeans. The Greeks would have done the same regardless of what polls say.

I am again sorry for implying that you were a pessimist adelphe. Forgive me for I have an honor code to uphold. No hard feelings adelphe.

If you think that there is no hope for Greece and the Greeks (emphasis on "if" since you are a pragmatist and not a defeatist like you said), then that is fine. However, the reality of the social environment dictates that there is a good future awaiting Greece and the Greeks. Despite all of the pressures and garbage the Greeks had to put up with for a long time, things are now changing for the better.

I am optimistic only because I have studied the Greek social environment very well. Years and years of research. I know that Greece will succeed and I am not just saying that because I am Greek. I am saying this because the world is changing and people are becoming more involved in the welfare of their nations and thus becoming more, nationalistic.

Take care adelphe. Later.

2:44 PM  
Blogger Johnny said...

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9:48 PM  
Blogger Hellenic Nationalist said...

hellenian,deucalionate,Nikos, generally great comments and contributions all around, a lot worth pondering.

Nikos, your poignant commentary did manage to touch me in a way, because while living in Greece, I too was sad at times when seeing relics of the past, and sometimes did not even want to see them when I saw what today's Greece has to manage, with a large portion of the economy in many areas devoted to serving decadent Western
tourists, I can understand the empty feeling a Greek must feel watching the drunken escapades of debauchery all from what has to be one of the great scourges of modern capitalism. Shoppers and tourists must do a lot to bring Greeks down , not to mention the all around stagerring unemployment of urban youth, the decrepit and corrupt educational system etc etc

What I must challenge is the oft-times false idea that orthodox Christianity was in any way barbaric and that Arabs somehow are most responsible for preserving Ancient Greek achievements and passing them on to the Western barbarians. The mistake is common , especially since the Christian heretics of the West have done their best to present an Orthodox-free history , with a careful and intentional void of the millenium old accomplishments of the Byzantine Greeks insofar as developing true Christianity, in literature and science and in preserving the ancient Greek accomplishments. The West, also , has had a historical fixation on Ancient pagan Greece, and somehow for them Greece died with Constantine The Great, who they falsely assume was Catholic as was all Christianity for them until their later demented "Reformations" and "Enlightenments"

Some facts: the Arabs ( or more accurately the Arab speakers) were a mere bedouin tribe of nomads until Mohammed and Islam (which began in the 600s) Islam conquered numerous nations and tribes and geneotypes and imposed Islam on them and its Arabic Koran which eventually made all of these various peoples of North Africa and the Middle East "Arabs", the Arab Empires of North Africa (the Moors whose territory also included present day Portugal, Spain and parts of Italy and France) arose in the 600s and lasted until about the 1400s and gained even european territory through vast military conquest. Due to succesful military campaigns by heretical Christian monarchs who rolled them back into Africa around the 1400s they soon got dumped onto the dustbin of history, for lack of a better term. This is most likely how the West got its taste of Greek achievements.There is also too much evidence that refugee Greek Orthodox Christian scholars went West after Constantinople's fall and passed on all their knowlege of the ancients.

What we must not forget is that Byzantine Greeks ruled over North Africa from the 300s until the 600s-700s, at this time various Christian heresies, such as the Monophysite movement survived today by the Coptics, led to discord and schisms in North Africa, and North Africans began to seperate themselves from Byzantium leading to the rapid conquest by Islam. Similiar things happened in the Middle East -- the Islamic conquest there led to the Kingdoms in Baghdad , which were also overrun around the 1400s, here it was done by the co-religionist Turks.

Anyway, the Arabs, or more accurately the Muslims, did NOT get these ideas from ancient ,pagan Greece. They got them from Byzantine Greek Orthodox CHRISTIAN scholars and learned men who were in the areas they conquered for at least three centuries.

Byzantium had great scientific achievements, the ambulatory system, for example, is directly descended from Byzantine Greek innovations,as is military marvels such as "Greek fire" , built on the ideas of the ancients.

I kindly suggest that you try to read some of many thousands of pages of literature,poetry, philosophy, sociology and theology written by the Three Hierarchs of Christianity, true Christianity--Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil and Saint Gregory Palamas--three proud Greek men from early Byzantium, who wrote great works of brilliance that become the foundation of the liturgical life of the church that is used to this day. There is too much evidence on how much the Byzantine Greek orthodox Christians did to preserve the ancients, through careful archiving and from frequent cross-referencing. Please do some more research into this area, and do not fall for the nonsense that Moslems somehow had direct contact with ancient Greek pagans.

11:51 PM  
Blogger Johnny said...

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1:54 PM  

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